Teton Inverter, battery, EMS upgrade thread

[lockmup68]

I thought I would consolidate my thread on the Teton wiring, inverter, battery, and EMS upgrade. Big thanks to @Chad Heiser, @Yarome, and @Jack Mayer and others for their willingness to answer all my dumb questions.  I try very hard to understand what is presented and only ask a question one time. Apologies in advance if I repeat myself. 

I've attempted to map out what I "think" the system will look like. Please let me know your thoughts. 

Now for some more dumb questions:

1. In watching technomadia's video of running AC when they are on a 15 amp extension cord, they show how the hybrid inverter/batts/solar makes up the difference to keep things running when loads are more than shore power. Question is, does my schematic allow for this? To accomplish this, I assume everything is wired into the sub panel? Is the sub panel off a 50a breaker in the main panel? Or since I want to include everything, is a sub panel not needed and wire direct into main panel? This is where I get confused. (solar is a future add.)
2. I have the EMS after the transfer switch, is that correct? 
3. My genset is on the truck. The trailer has a gen prep package with a transfer switch already installed and a junction box in the area where they usually install the generator. I'm assuming I can use this connection to wire in a front shore power plug. Is that a valid assumption? 
4. Since my genset is on the truck and not in the trailer, assuming the truck is at the trailer and plugged into the trailer, can a remote generator start be wired into this configuration? Assuming I can figure out that removable plug/cord needed for the remote connection. Of course, the remote generator start would only work if the truck/generator was plugged into the trailer and the remote start was properly connected. 
5. Figuring out how much wire to buy. I need to do the batteries and wiring on the trailer and also rewire the two battery banks on the truck. I figured 50 feet of 4/0 would work. I know I need some #6/3, #8/3 and #8/2, with appropriate lugs/connectors and heat shrink. How much of each and what is missing is the question.
6. What amperage shunt and what amperage catastrophe fuse? I "think" it needs a 600 amp shunt and a 500 amp fuse, or are both the same? How to figure out size? 
7. For the disconnect switches, is there a specific amperage or rating needed? I also saw in a couple of pictures what looked like a 3 way battery disconnect wired in a couple of places, is this needed? If so, for what purpose?
8. off of the battery bank, in some pictures I've seen, there is a 3 or 4 big lug "buss bar" if you will. In looking to try and source these, they are rated at various amps. What is really needed/recommended? I assume these are for attachment points so nothing is directly on the battery? 
9. for the 12v system in the trailer, Teton already has, what looks like a pretty robust system in place, positive bus bar, fuse panel, on/off switch, resettable breakers, neg bus bar, etc. I assume a simple tie into what is there and not a major rewire. (pic attached) 
10. I picked up a Magnum CSW1012 inverter, transfer switch, and remote panel for super cheap. Want to use this on the refigerator circuit only. Not sure if i have this wired right on paper. 
11. for the existing converter, I assume just leave as is currently wired and simply unplug it from the shore power circuit and only plug in if a failure in another part of the system as disaster recovery?
12. Still undecided on which inverter, Victron or Magnum. I do like the GUI display on the Victron, but it seems like there are more Magnums in use (on the HDT forum at least). Price is practically the same, so take that out of the equation. Is there a big size difference? 
13. for the subpanel, I assume to use a regular residential subpanel and breakers? The Teton has a SquareD panel in there, so use same SquareD subpanel? Same size breakers for each circuit in there? The closer to the original panel, the better/easier to wire? I'm a little fuzzy on the actual wiring, is this correct? Shore power --> Main 120v panel --> main panel feeds everything through inverter, if on shore power, then pass through, if no shore power, the switches to battery/inverter power? --> 50a breaker feed to sub panel --> everything is fed off sub panel now. Is this correct? So all the breakers in the current Main panel remain unused (unless not fed by the inverter?) Or is it Shore Power --> Main 120v panel --> Inverter --> sub-panel --> back to main panel? In other words, when I wire in the sub-panel, am I pulling the individual feeds off the breakers in the main panel completely, or wiring in the sub panel in between. I'm doing some more youtube watching and reading on wiring in sub panels to try and figure it out.

Thanks for your help.

Shannon

 

[Chad Heiser]

I am working from a iPad currently, so it is a little hard to give detailed answers right now.  When I can get in front of an actual computer later this week, I will give a detailed response to each of your questions.  For right now, you are on the right track.  Some quick things that I noticed:

Your existing 12 volt panel looks pretty robust.  I wouldn't make any changes there.  It will have a positive and negative main feed wires coming from the batteries now.  These main feed wires would move yo your new positive and negative bus bars at the battery.  Ideally, you would only have two cables coming off your batteries - one positive and one negative.  The positive goes through your high amperage on off switch to your high amperage positive bus bar.  The negative goes through the shunt to your high amperage negative bus bar.  Then all your new and existing positive and negative connections get moved to these new bus bars.  This will allow you to completely isolate your battery bank with the on off switch when necessary and monitor all power pulled from and put back into the bank via the shunt.  These cables going to the bus bars should be as short as possible.  All of your circuit protection would then go in line between your power source (the buss bar) and the "appliance" drawing the power.

The flow of AC power would be as follows:  Shore power or stand alone generator power will come through a power cord.  Your multiple power cords you describe will connect internally to an automatic transfer switch, which will determine which power supply it will use and pass through to the system.  This power will flow through your energy management system and into your main power panel.  The main power panel will hold all of your high draw appliances you do not wish to power with the inverter- typically AC's, electric element of water heater, converter, etc.  This panel will have a breaker (usually a dual pole 30 amp) to supply power to the whole house inverter.  The inverter will have an automatic transfer switch built into it to pass shore power through when present.  The inverter will be wired to the sub panel which will house all the loads you want to power from the inverter.  The main panel and sub panel should be physically close to each other for wiring ease because you will have to physically move all the circuits you want to power with the inverter from the existing main panel to the new sub panel.  If you want to power an AC unit with the help of your hybrid inverter sharing the load to make up for low shore power, that particular AC unit will have to be wired into the sub panel.

Your dedicated refrigerator inverter will be connected to the 12 volt bus bars with the appropriate circuit protection.  It's 120 volt output will go to the separate 15 amp Magnum transfer switch.  The 120 volt circuit that the refrigerator plug is powered by will be removed from the sub panel and connected to the output side of the Magnum transfer switch.  A new wire (12/2 or 14/2 Romex as appropriate) will be added between the refrigerator sub panel circuit breaker you just vacated and the 120 volt input side of the Magnum transfer switch.  This will allow the refrigerator to be powered by shore, generator, whole house inverter or dedicated inverter with no intervention from you - all automated.

More to come....

[Chad Heiser]

1.  I addressed this in my previous post.

2.  You are correct.

3.  Your assumption is correct.  

4.  This is possible, but it is dependant on the generator on the truck.  It has to have remote start capabilities.  If it does then wiring could be run to the trailer to allow this to happen.  This would require the wires to be run to a point on the truck - next to wherever your generator receptacle is located most likely.  Some type of plug would have to be fabricated to allow for disconnecting the remote start switch.  Then the remote start switch could be mounted in the desired location in the trailer and wires run from it to a point on the exterior of the trailer and terminate in some type of fabricated plug.  You would then need some type of jumper wire to run between the new plug on the truck and the new plug on the trailer with sufficient length to allow for various parking positions of the truck - i.e. as long as the power cable you will use to plug the trailer into the generator on the truck.  It sounds complicated, but really the hardest part would be properly routing the wires between the points.

5.  Wire lengths will be install specific and are next to impossible to estimate without knowing where everything will be installed in the trailer and the exact distances between your connection points.  Remember for your 4/0 cable, you will want red and black cables.  For example, in my install I used about 15 feet of red and 15 feet of black 4/0.  50 feet is most likely way more than you need, but I can't say for sure without seeing your trailer and knowing exactly where everything will be installed.  The battery cables and the cable runs to your bus bars from the batteries should be kept as short as possible.  The run from the bus bars to the inverters should also be kept as short as possible.  Ideally, the inverters should be in a different compartment than the batteries, but with AGM's or lithium batteries this is not mandatory.  You will also need red and black heat shrink and 4/0 cable lugs.  The cable lugs will most likely require different size lug holes depending on what they are connected to.  In my install, I have 4/0 x 1/2", 4/0 x 3/8" and 4/0 x 5/16" lugs.  You will also need the appropriate lugs to connect all you existing 12 volt wires to your new bus bars.  These will require re-routing from there existing direct to battery connections to wherever you mount your new bus bars.  I mounted my bus bars close to the original battery location so I didn't have to extend any of these existing wires. It is more difficult to extend existing wiring than it is to run new wires.  The only 120 volt wire you should need to add will be between your new power cord plug and the existing transfer switch, between the main power panel and the new whole house inverter, between the whole house inverter and the new sub panel, and between the new sub panel and the stand alone Magnum transfer switch.  There may be some other new circuits installed as needed, but these are unknown to me at this time.  Between the power cord and transfer switch, I would use the same size wire as the power cord.  Between the main power panel and the whole house inverter 10/3 should be sufficient, assuming you use a 30 amp dual pole circuit breaker to power the inverter charger.  Between the inverter and the sub panel, 10/2 will be sufficient (again, assuming 30 amp).  Whichever inverter you end up with should give you wiring recommendations in the installation instructions.  Between the Magnum transfer switch and the sub panel, use the same size wire as is on the refrigerator circuit -probably 14/2, but maybe 12/2.  Lengths of these will be installation dependant.

More to come (I love typing on an iPad).

[Jack Mayer]

Chad, buy a keyboard case for the iPad. They work well. I have one for my Android tablet and it makes it into a "real" computer

As far as the topic, I'll let Chad continue on it as he is doing very well.... I'll chime in if I  see anything to add. I'm kinda tied up on other projects at the moment.

[lockmup68]

agree with Jack. I'm in tech and use ipad with a Zagg folio case 95% of the time. Rest of time on mac air. The Zagg has the best keyboard IMO, very similar to the mac keyboard. 

https://www.zagg.com/us/en_us/catalogsearch/result/?q=folio

[Chad Heiser]

6.  The shunt will come with either the Magnum BMK or the Victron battery monitor, whichever you end up with.  No need to buy one separately.  For circuit protection for the inverters, they will recommend the appropriate sized fusing in their respective installation manuals.  The Magnum 3012 will require a 400 amp Class T fuse.  I assume the Victron will be the same are similarly sized, but I have not read the technical specs for the Victron.  The Magnum 1012 will require a 150 amp Class T fuse.  The remainder of your existing 12 volt wiring should already have all the appropriate circuit protection in line.  Once you add your solar, you will need additional circuit protection/switching on either side of the solar controller, but that is only needed once solar is installed.

7.  I added two on off switches to my install.  I provided links to them in my thread about my solar install.  They need to be appropriately sized based on the largest draw your system will have.  They should be bigger than the biggest circuit protection you have in the line.  You have one indicated in your diagram and I have spoken of above to isolate the battery bank completely.  In my system I used a Blue Sea 3000 switch.  I believe it is rated at 600 amps (from memory).  Your 12 volt power panel has another existing on off switch built into it.  This switch will isolate that panel.  The other one I added was for the solar array.  This isn't needed until you add solar.

8.  You want high amperage capable bus bars.  Again capable of handling anything the system will throw at it, so higher than your highest circuit protection.  The ones I used are listed in my solar thread.  They are from BRP.

9.  I wouldn't touch your existing 12 volt system other than to move the main power feeds from the battery to your new bus bars (as I mentioned earlier).

10.  You're diagram doesn't depict the small inverter correctly with the additional transfer switch, etc.  I have discussed how to wire it above.

11.  Correct.  Leave it in place.  Either unplug it or if it is wired properly, it should be on its own circuit in the main power panel that will allow you to simply turn the breaker off.

12.  I personally only have experience with Magnum, but I like Victron from what I know of them.  Like I have said in other threads, I really like their GUI interface on their "advanced" remote.  For me it would probably come down to price.  There are lots of ancillary parts/modules that are required to make the system work.  I would price the whole package out and see which one is the best value.  I think once you price everything out Magnum will probably be cheaper, but I haven't actually priced out Victron so I don't know.  The Magnum will require the inverter, ME-BMK, ME-ARC and a PT-100 if you want integrated solar.  I don't know all the Victron pieces without researching it.

13.  Yes, find a panel of appropriate size from the same manufacturer as your existing panel.  I have discussed how to wire it above.  You want to mount the sub panel as close to the main panel as possible so it is easy to move all the circuits you want to power with the inverter to the sub panel without extending any existing wires.

This "briefly" covers all of your individual questions.  Let me know if you need anything more in depth.

[Chad Heiser]

I know I should get a keyboard for the iPad, but I usually have a computer easily accessible to me so it isn't typically an issue.  I just happen to be out of state at a conference right now and I didn't bring an actual computer with me on this trip.  I didn't know I was going to be writing essays while I was here.