Intermittent Starting Problem

[RAGBAG]

I have been an avid reader of this forum for a couple of years and truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge on it.  I have never been compelled to post any questions on here, but I have been dealing with an intermittent issue when starting my truck.  I own a 2000 Volvo 610 with a Cummins N14 and a 10 speed Eaton Fuller three pedal automatic that I use to pull my fifth wheel trailer.  I have worked through the standard repairs / maintenance you would expect for a 17 year old truck with just under 750,000 miles.  

The problem that I, nor a couple of repair shops, have not been able to resolve is the truck not always starting.  Let me explain in a little more detail.  I have gone months, including 50+ starts, without a problem.  Then without notice, and at the most inopportune time I might add, I get the dreaded click.  Yes, I turn the key about three quarters of the way, listen and wait for the three audible clicks, then turn the key.  The lights on the dash are all on during the three clicks as expected.  Then when the key is turned the rest of the way they all go dark and I get a dead-sounding click.  Nothing.  Sometimes it starts if I turn the key off and try again.  Sometimes I can try the process 10 - 15 times and eventually it might start.  Sometimes pulling the battery cable off seems to reset the computer and then it might start.  But definitely not always.  I should add here that all four batteries were replaced less than a week ago.  I thought that might resolve the problem but I encountered a no start the morning after they were installed.  

If this type of problem has been posted in the past, I apologize.  I love my HDT and how it pulls my fifth wheel . . . when it starts.

Thanks for your suggestions!

[lenp]

Sounds like a bad connection someplace - battery terminals, chassis ground, start solenoid, etc.  Good enough connection to pass 12 volts at LOW current but fails when you try to crank (HIGH current).  Been there.

Lenp

[Dennis M]

Check the internals in the starter motor. I had identical symptoms on a '99 610 with a Volvo lump. Records that came with the truck showed six new starters in 600k!!

Finally a smart service manger at Louisville Truck Center said he'd seen the symptoms before. The AC lines sit right above the starter connection on mine. Condensation drips on the connection, leaks INTO the starter, and corrodes the the connection INSIDE the starter! New starter, insulation on the AC lines - ten years and 100k later no problems.

[Larry&Donna-AK]

Yes, make sure all the connections on the other end of the batteries connections are cleaned and tighten, especially the ground.

[VegasFlyer]

Another possible culprit, especially, with an intermittent problem, is the ignition switch.

[GeorgiaHybrid]

One other thing to check, with that many miles, would be the battery cables and the ones to the starter. They can build up internal corrosion that is not apparent until you you check them. Use a good DVM in auto ranging DC mode to check the differential in each wire as you are cranking the engine and see if you have one or more with a problem. You would be surprised at how bad some of the wiring can get. If you do replace a bad cable, peel off the insulation from it and take a look at the bare wire itself. In auto ranging mode, the DVM will measure the difference in voltage in the wiring. If you see much more than .5 volt in any one part of the circuit, you have found your problem.

By each part, check the battery to terminal, wire to terminal, then the terminal ends of each wire. Also don't forget the starter solenoid as the contacts there can get burnt over time and cause a lot of issues as well. As noted above, check for a worn starter switch.

[NeverEasy]

The key here to me is " The lights on the dash are all on during the three clicks as expected.  Then when the key is turned the rest of the way they all go dark and I get a dead-sounding click.".   That "all go dark" says that the voltage to the electronics is gone.  Try this math problem.

Let’s suppose there is a slightly bad connection or cable with .1 ohms resistance between the battery and the starter.  Not much.  When you turn on the switch let’s say you pull 3 amps.  The voltage drop across that .1 ohm resistance is (E=I x R) .3 volts thus leaving a nominal 11.7 volts (12-.3) at the starter connection where the trucks electronics connects. No problem, everything works.

When you turn the switch on to start, the starter will pull a lot of current.  I don’t know the real pull but it is a lot.  Let’s use 100 amps just for a number.  Now, 100 amps x .1 ohm gives us 10 volts which will drop the voltage at the starter connections to 2 volts (12-10) thus everything on the truck goes dark.

It does not take much of a bad cable or connection to cause a lot of problems.  Also, a problem inside the starter or solenoid will cause the loss there, after the connection to the truck’s electronics.  The normal starter winding resistance is so low so as to appear to be a near dead short on the battery anyway.

On edit, I forgot to mention that the "phantom resistance" can be on either the positive or negative side of the system.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Similar symptoms on our '98 610 with an M-11 Cummins.  I replaced all the cables from Alternator to Starter and Starter to Batteries, including the buss bars that tie the batteries together.  I did the Pos and well as the Neg sides.  Finally, I replaced the ignition switch (for another reason- It got stuck).  At the dealer, the service writer told me that usually, the ignition switch is the culprit because the contacts wear out and doesn't allow the relay to energize enough to power the starter.

[noteven]

I can think of 2 times - 

many moons ago my neighbour's JD 8440 tractor that would have a case of the click no starts every now and again - finally he holds the key and I "work" the battery cables from end to end in two hands - all of a sudden contact.  Cable was corroded in the middle inside the insulation, not visible. Replace cable. Fixed. 

the one hd truck shut off in the yard, then no start. Click click. Had a clamp on ammeter put over the power cable at the starter, turn key, click, many amps, no turnee of the starter motor. Replace starter. Fixed.

[LostSoul]

Mine did something similar. I tolerated it until it got bad. I found my battery ground cable bad at the starter end. Just before I changed it I found that I could put a little pressure on the cable at the starter using a broom handle and bring things to life. 

[VegasFlyer]

Both possibilities are not hard to diagnose, with the use of a volt/ohm meter.

[Big5er]

32 minutes ago, VegasFlyer said:

Both possibilities are not hard to diagnose, with the use of a volt/ohm meter.

Along with the knowledge to use it properly and comprehend the readings.

I have a lot of one, a little of another but am a bit lacking in the third. 

 

Like I said at Denny's the other day, my job is to tell you it is broke (which I am good at), but how to fix it is a whole different story. 

[gjhunter01]

Could also be a flat spot on the starter armature. Next time it doesn't start, try tapping on the starter housing with a small hammer.

Greg

[rickeieio]

Oldest grandson had a similar issue with his new-to-him pick-up.  It stranded him and his mom twice.  His dad was going to buy him a new battery, but I first checked the cables at the battery.  Both were loose. We do get lucky occasionally..........

First, check for loose connections.  Grab the cables and see if you can move them.  If so, you likely found the culprit.  Next, put a volt meter on the starter as someone tries to crank it.  If the voltage takes a dive, you know to start working backwards until you find the point where the electrons are stopping.

And just remember the old saying, "It's always the ground."

[Ronbo]

My T2000 does the same thing. Previous owner had it in the shop multiple times. I have a relay on the fuse panel that passes power to the starter. He included a wire to stick in a couple holes after removing the relay and it would start. Often a few times I made some tabs out of copper tubing and inserted in the proper holes. The wires from the tabs run to a push button starter switch. I now turn ignition key, wait for it to cycle through the gauges then Press start button. No problems since.

[Wrknrvr]

 The next time it does not start ,listen for where that relay is. It may be the problem. Mine does that but just try again and it starts.

 

 I would suggest finding a wiring diagram and start testing.

 

 It's not fun but stay with it.

 

 

 Safe travels,.  Vern

[rickeieio]

3 hours ago, Ronbo said:

My T2000 does the same thing. Previous owner had it in the shop multiple times. I have a relay on the fuse panel that passes power to the starter. He included a wire to stick in a couple holes after removing the relay and it would start. Often a few times I made some tabs out of copper tubing and inserted in the proper holes. The wires from the tabs run to a push button starter switch. I now turn ignition key, wait for it to cycle through the gauges then Press start button. No problems since.

Sounds like the key switch is the issue.

[VegasFlyer]

8 hours ago, Big5er said:

Along with the knowledge to use it properly and comprehend the readings.

I have a lot of one, a little of another but am a bit lacking in the third. 

 

Like I said at Denny's the other day, my job is to tell you it is broke (which I am good at), but how to fix it is a whole different story. 

Good point.  Fortunately it is something that can be taught in a few minutes, or a couple Diet Pepsi's.  

[bigredhdt]

I had a similar problem with my 2007 vnl, d12.  I'm guessing these starter systems are similar.  The ignition energizes an external starter relay, which energizes a mag switch that operates the solenoid.  I checked the impedance of my ground 1st and found it to be good.  Next, I would test the external starter relay, by connecting a good jumper cable to the positive side of the batteries and energizing the control for the starter relay which should start the motor.  (I use this to turn over the motor to get oil in the engine when it has been sitting longer than a week)  If the relay is good this should send ~12v to the mag switch.  If it doesn't start then check the output of the starter relay.  If you don't have any voltage, then put your + jumper cable on the output of the starter relay.  If this doesn't start then I would go direct to the solenoid.  If it still doesn't start, run your ground jumper to the ground on the starter and try the solenoid again.  If all that doesn't work, change the starter. 

[VegasFlyer]

I had a similar issue with a Kenworth 900B, we found the solution in a very obscure way.  After testing each and every battery cable, the starter, start relay and ignitin switch, we tried placing a jumper cable from the battery bank negative post, to the engine.....Problem solved.

The takeaway on that, if you have multiple points of contact, you have to be careful that you could have a little bit of resistance in each point that does not seem bad, when checked individually, however, collectively you have a major problem.

The other point which has been eluded to in this post, whether your problem is in a cable, an ignition switch, a relay or a Flux Capacitor, the problem is usually more related to the ground side of the house....  "Usually" being the operative word here.

[RAGBAG]

Thank you all so much for the great advice.  It's been almost a month since I posted my question and after working through several of the suggested trouble shooting suggestions I believe I've found what was causing my problem.  A bad starter.  The shop that replaced the starter said they could not be certain if it was the original starter or if it had been replaced in the past 17 years.  New starter installed and the truck starts every time now.

The detailed mechanic who replaced the starter also discovered an incorrect fuel filter in the truck that was causing a slow/hard start.  The fuel filter is even more frustrating since the truck had a PM done in the last two months which included all filters.  The PM was performed at a certified Volvo dealer.  Problem now solved now feeling more confident the truck will start every time we want to move.

Thanks again!

[MrSeas]

Can you give us the part number on the "incorrect" fuel filter and the part number on the correct one?

Thanks,

[Ronbo]

My 2000 (actually 1999) Cummins N14 uses the Fleetgaurd FS1000. Do not use a Baldwin filter. It will cause hard starting problems. I now carry 2 spare fuel filters and provide my own when being serviced if they don't carry it. Call around for prices. Should be able to get it for max of $16. Sometimes they are really proud of their filters, especially cummins.