Phaeton or Journey?

[Jack Mayer]

I haven't seen mentioned a used diesel. There are many available, and at price points not to be overlooked. And you won't take that huge depreciation hit. Over 5yrs. ago we bought used and wouldn't change a thing.

In my case that is a "non-starter". I'm looking for a small rig....ideally under 30'. Yes, you can get a Tiffin Breeze that is a tiny diesel pusher. But it has (mostly) the Maxxforce engines (on used units) and they have a great lack of power and LOTS of other issues. And the Red is out of our size AND price range even used. For us it is a hard choice. But we may be going back to the VIsta 27N which was our original target motorhome. It has a good balance of livability and features for the price for that size coach. It definitely is not something that we would fulltime in, but that is not its function. For us the alternative is the Tiffin Open Road 31SA, and we may end up with that. It is far better built and more livable than the VIsta....but it is also a lot bigger.

[silverb]

One MAJOR concern, you have a problem with the WB and you have to take it to a Dealer, no factory service.

 

If you have the Tiffin, you can take it to a dealer OR you can take it to Tiffin in Red Bay, AL and they have a HUGE repair shop, plus many of the current and retired Tiffin workers will do repairs after hours and they do Excellant work. In many cases even if out of warrenty they will do repairs for $$$ .00. While there in Red Bay you can go talk to Bob Tiffin at his office, No Door, or catch him at lunch at Peggly Wiggle.

 

Silverb

[pjstough]

One MAJOR concern, you have a problem with the WB and you have to take it to a Dealer, no factory service.

 

 

Silverb

 

For those on here with a Winnebago, is that your understanding or experience?

[ecramer]

 

For those on here with a Winnebago, is that your understanding or experience?

 

Incorrect. Winnebago does have factory service in Forest City. I talked to a customer service rep last month. You generally need to make an appointment which we plan to do next February.

[tb919]

So what is the consensus on all electric versus propane? Some of the Phaetons are one or the other. The journeys are propane only I think. All electric is appealing but what are the pros and cons?

[Bill Joyce]

So what is the consensus on all electric versus propane? Some of the Phaetons are one or the other. The journeys are propane only I think. All electric is appealing but what are the pros and cons?

"All electric" really means using a diesel hydronic system for hot water and heat and an electric cooktop (a 20AMP, 2 burner inductance in the newest models), a convection/microwave for an oven and a residential fridge. Hopefully it comes with sufficient batteries and a large pure sinewave inverter charger, preferably one that can load support like the 3000 watt Magnum hybrid. Hydronic heat is better that the normal propane furnace and also gives continuous hot water on diesel. It does cost more for maintenance, but is really nice. If you don't boondock much, all electric can work well, since you will be needing to run your generator more when boondocking. If you routinely camp where the electric power is 30AMPs or less, it does require more attention to electric management to cook. Long term camping where it is cold might require going out for diesel. A friend wintered in the Seattle area, which has mild winters, and used 6 to 10 gallons of diesel a week.

[mrfrank]

"All electric" really means using a diesel hydronic system for hot water and heat and an electric cooktop (a 20AMP, 2 burner inductance in the newest models), a convection/microwave for an oven and a residential fridge. Hopefully it comes with sufficient batteries and a large pure sinewave inverter charger, preferably one that can load support like the 3000 watt Magnum hybrid. Hydronic heat is better that the normal propane furnace and also gives continuous hot water on diesel. It does cost more for maintenance, but is really nice. If you don't boondock much, all electric can work well, since you will be needing to run your generator more when boondocking. If you routinely camp where the electric power is 30AMPs or less, it does require more attention to electric management to cook. Long term camping where it is cold might require going out for diesel. A friend wintered in the Seattle area, which has mild winters, and used 6 to 10 gallons of diesel a week.

The induction cooktop in the 2016 Phaetons is 30 AMP, not 20. The coach comes with a 2000 watt Magnum Pure Sine Inverter which is coupled with a Power Control System power manager which will switch loads to the inverter or shed loads when necessary. If you heat with Diesel, you must replenish it regularly, if you heat with Propane, the same thing goes. I use a "Extend -A Stay" in the winter and I need to refill a 40LB propane tank every 6-10 days depending on how cold it gets. In really cold weather you can empty your main propane tank (28 Gal at 80% full) very quickly when using propane heat. A 100 gallon diesel tank will last longer than a 35 gallon propane tank! I do run my heated floors and fireplace when on propane heat to augment the heaters. Above 40 degrees, I run the heat pumps and the Power Control System will alternate which HP comes on. Many times the front and rear HP will both be running IF they both do not try to start at the same time and nothing much else is running on 120V. All Phaetons with Residential Refers come with 6 6V batteries, and optionally with 6 Large Lifeline AGMs. My coach has propane heat (and hot water) because I wanted a gas cooktop and I couldn't get Aquahot and Gas. That's a Tiffin marketing decision.

[Bill Joyce]

mrfrank: A 30AMP induction and only a 2000 watt inverter means you can't run the induction fully on the inverter and forget cooking while on 30AMP. I think 2000 watts is too little. My friend hauled two 6 gallon cans for his weekly diesel run. He also has heat pumps, ones that go down to 30 degrees, but in a Western Washington winter there can be extended times it goes below freezing.

 

I do not have an all electric motorhome. I have a 3000 watt Hybrid inverter, LFP batteries, and a residential fridge, but these were changes made afterwards. My wife nixed a portable inductance cooktop, since she is already juggling the microwave and our Breville toaster oven on our 30 AMP inverter circuit.

[mrfrank]

The induction cooktop that Tiffin installs cannot be run full bore anyway, One eye can be on full, but the second cannot go but to 1/2 power when the other is on full. At least it is a 120 Cooktop. The one that they installed in the 2015 model year was a 240V unit which could not be used unless you were plugged into 50 amp service or running on the generator. This is one of the factors that influenced us not to go with the "All Electric" coach.

[tb919]

So glad I asked. There is an enormous amount to learn and this is a fabulous place to get info.

 

Perhaps we don't need all the "extras" that are in some of the Tiffin models. In fact, I know we don't so now tell me. Is it better, or should I say, more cost effective in the long run to order one with exactly what you need in place of finding that one already available?

 

I'm sorry if my questions seem a bit "simple" but we won't know unless I ask. Ya'll are great with replying and I really appreciate the experience out there. We're relative newbies, having been RVing for just a couple of years now and wanting to jump to a larger coach there's just so much to learn. Thanks for your patience.

[Kirk W]

Perhaps we don't need all the "extras" that are in some of the Tiffin models. In fact, I know we don't so now tell me. Is it better, or should I say, more cost effective in the long run to order one with exactly what you need in place of finding that one already available?

There is nothing simple at all about this question and I am sure that you will get a variety of different answers. Some on these forums will tell you to never buy new, while others will say to buy nothing but new. Both views have their reasons and most of them are valid, at least to some people. We have bought 3 new and 4 used RVs over the years. When we went on the road we chose new for several reasons. The best one was probably the advantage that comes if you order your new RV outfitted to be just exactly the way that you want. We also wanted to start our adventure with an RV that we knew the entire history of and with all new furniture and a bed not previously slept in. while all three of our new RVs have had some warranty work, none had an excessive amount of it. With new, I was aware of all mechanical and RV issues our new home experienced and that all maintenance was done promptly when called for. You can save money when you buy used, but you also accept at least some degree of risk as well. The times we have bought new it was also because we planned to keep the RV for a long period. The first new was kept 9 years, the second one 14 years and the last one is what we now own.

[Jimalberta]

Just to throw a monkey wrench into all of this.....I would not trade my American Eagle for a Phaeton or a Journey. Do lots of looking before you buy.

[TreyandSusan]

 

Incorrect. Winnebago does have factory service in Forest City. I talked to a customer service rep last month. You generally need to make an appointment which we plan to do next February.

Agreed - Winnebego does have factory service in Forest City. Been to Forest City this past year and have seen it.

[docj]

 

I do not have an all electric motorhome. I have a 3000 watt Hybrid inverter, LFP batteries, and a residential fridge, but these were changes made afterwards. My wife nixed a portable inductance cooktop, since she is already juggling the microwave and our Breville toaster oven on our 30 AMP inverter circuit.

 

Having a hydronic heating system with hot water capability does give you a bit more flexibility when connected to 30A. On Prince Edward Island this summer we only had 30A but were able to "juggle" our loads by turning off the electric water heater and letting our hydronic system provide hot water. Since we rarely needed A/C there, we could use our induction burner and either the Breville or the micro/convection without tripping the breaker.

 

With respect to using hydronic systems for heating during the winter and the need to keep diesel fuel tanks full, a couple of years ago we had Rixen in Oregon install his Comfort Hot system as an add-on to our Hurricane hydronic. Unlike the relatively small electric heaters that are often installed as supplemental heaters on Aquahot and Oasis systems, the Comfort Hot mod "repurposes" two of the A/C circuits and utilizes them to provide ~4kW of heating power. We can easily maintain a comfortable coach temperature with outside temps down to the mid 30's which is all we need for south TX winters. That way we can heat electrically all winter without having to carry 5 gal jugs of diesel fuel to the site every week. IMO the difference between heating electrically vs the diesel fuel cost isn't so bad when one factors in the convenience and the reduced maintenance on the hydronic system. It's worth noting that when we are at sites that don't charge for electricity the Comfort Hot enables us to provide heat for free.

[Bill Joyce]

docj: We have only 30A available on our inverter circuit, even on 50A. With a residential fridge that decides to do defrost cycles without warning, we find it works best to only run one high wattage appliance at a time. Besides, somehow we have all our kitchen storage taken up and do not know were to store the inductance cooktop anyway. Sadly we have inductance ready cookware, but that is what is taking some of the storage.

[Jack Mayer]

Bill, have you given any thought to pulling the refrigerator off of the inverter circuit and putting a small dedicated inverter for it in? One it would be running on all the time? That would take the fridge load off your inverter. And it would mean you would not necessarily have to run the large inverter just for the fridge......just a thought. But a relatively lot of work for the little bit of power you recapture....

[Bill Joyce]

Jack: More likely we would bring in a larger wire and change the inverter breaker to 40A, which our current subpanel can support, or replace the subpanel and wire it so an entire 50A leg is wired to it. The Magnum has a 60A transfer switch, so it can support either option.

[Jack Mayer]

Jack: More likely we would bring in a larger wire and change the inverter breaker to 40A, which our current subpanel can support, or replace the subpanel and wire it so an entire 50A leg is wired to it. The Magnum has a 60A transfer switch, so it can support either option.

Or, better yet, take 30 amps from each leg of service. and rearrange your loads to optimize that.....

[Smitty77_7]

The Phaeton was, probably still is, the number one selling mid tier Class A DP for a reason. Tiffen offers a good looking package, and as mentioned, with many nice features included as stock base price that are options in other coaches.

 

The last time I looked at the Tiffen line up, helping a friend sort thru the various models, we found the 42' Allegro Bust to be we felt the sweet spot in the line up. It got the new Tiffen Power Glide (Think that is what it was called.) chassis, what looked to be better build quality (subjective, and based upon walking thru show Phaeton/Allegro Bus). The two negatives were the mid size ISL and Exhaust Brake vs Compression Jake brakes. And the price jump between the two was not a large jump, say vs jumping from the Allegro Bus to the Zephyr line. (And yeah, we both liked the Zephyr Spartan K2 and ISX (The smaller 11.9L ISX) more then the Allegro Bus. But he had picked a max price point that the would consider for new...)

 

That being said, at this level the Journey or it's site the Meridian (If shopping used, as I believe WBGO has dropped this now?) is well liked by their owners. If shopping used, I'd go for the layout that matched your needs best, as well as condition. I'd drop a few years, save some budget, and then customize any interior items to your specific desire.

 

I consider both of these to be solid mid tier coaches, that should take good care of an owner.

 

My friend, ended up with a 40' Alpine Apex. The liked the mid entry, the two stage Jake Compression braking assist, larger 100G Grey tank and the handling was also a sales point to him. (He said he felt more comfortable, with less a 'floating' feel. It was a 2006, but the ISL was outside of the wrist pin grouping, and he has since had the power output bumped up by a Cummins location in Canada. They spent less then $5K on making minor interior modifications to make it their coach. He figures it saved them about $175-190K - going the lightly used route, vs new (compared to the Alegro Bus).

 

Best of luck to you on your hunt, not really a bad one between the two you are looking at:)!

Smitty

[docj]

docj: We have only 30A available on our inverter circuit, even on 50A. With a residential fridge that decides to do defrost cycles without warning, we find it works best to only run one high wattage appliance at a time. Besides, somehow we have all our kitchen storage taken up and do not know were to store the inductance cooktop anyway. Sadly we have inductance ready cookware, but that is what is taking some of the storage.

 

The "trick" we use is that when we installed the residential fridge we used the inverter-protected circuit that the microwave had been on and put the microwave on the non-inverter circuit that had previously provided AC to the Norcold. Then, when we purchased the Breville we extended to the kitchen the non-inverter that handles the washer/dryer. So we have two kitchen circuits (microwave and Breville) that are not on the inverter so we can plug the induction burner into the main kitchen circuit regardless of what the fridge is doing.

[tb919]

Back again with yet another choice. The 42HD Tour. I see so many of you have 42 footers so now my question is are they really much more stable? All those tires! I guess they would be. Why does it seem to be the length of choice? We've been looking at so many and for us just keep coming back to the WBGO products. Still like the Journey 40R but see a 2015 Tour 42HD with everything on it we like, including the floor plan, and it's less than the 2016 Journey. My husband likes the fact that the depreciation has taken place and we can get the benefit of it.

Any Tour owners out there?

[Kirk W]

Why does it seem to be the length of choice? We've been looking at so many and for us just keep coming back to the WBGO products. Still like the Journey 40R but see a 2015 Tour 42HD with everything on it we like, including the floor plan, and it's less than the 2016 Journey. My husband likes the fact that the depreciation has taken place and we can get the benefit of it.

A great deal of length preference comes from availability of those lengths. In general, once you move into the 40' market the issues of size really don't change a great deal for added length and it is more an issue of price for most buyers. While some of us tend to prefer the shorter length RVs it is usually based upon reasons that don't apply to most of those who shop the largest of RVs and many buyers deep down want to have the very largest RV available, since even the RV of the most length and highest number of slides is not even close to the floor space of a small stick house. Space required or even preferred is a very individual thing. I believe that if you both like an RV and it fits into your budget, then it is probably the one that you should buy. My opinions and preferences for our use isn't really important since we think differently than you.

 

On depreciation, that is a very subjective debate. So much of the first year depreciation is based upon what the first owner paid to buy the RV. RV sales people, just like those in the auto industry, are masters of number manipulation and many of their customers think that they got a far better deal than is actually the case. Unless the owner tries to sell his RV while it is still financed, he frequently never grasps the amount actually paid for it. Depreciation is figured based upon the factory MSRP, since that is the only standard number that can be used as no two buyers typically pay the same amount for the very same model of RV. First year depreciation is always based upon that common base and the same remains true throughout the life of the RV because it is the only price that can be fixed.

 

When you buy an RV that is new, but last year's model, very seldom do you get the same price as you would have for that RV if it had been registered by a previous owner and then traded in. Yet once you leave the dealer's lot the retail or book value will be exactly the same. That means that your skills in dealing come into play to determine the real price paid. To understand the impact of first year depreciation you need to know how many years that owner will keep the RV. True depreciation does not impact the owner until he/she sells or trades in the RV. In our case, we bought a new RV and then kept it for 14 years. The "experts" will tell you that we had a big first year depreciation hit, but the simple fact is that the effect of depreciation was actually a price difference between what we bought for and what we got when sold, all of that divided by 14. In our first year of owning our new motorhome, there was no big depreciation effect at all.

[mrfrank]

Back again with yet another choice. The 42HD Tour. I see so many of you have 42 footers so now my question is are they really much more stable? All those tires! I guess they would be. Why does it seem to be the length of choice? We've been looking at so many and for us just keep coming back to the WBGO products. Still like the Journey 40R but see a 2015 Tour 42HD with everything on it we like, including the floor plan, and it's less than the 2016 Journey. My husband likes the fact that the depreciation has taken place and we can get the benefit of it.

Any Tour owners out there?

 

Not a Tour owner, we ran a 40 foot Tiffin Phaeton for 7 years and are now in a 42 ft Phaeton. The Tag axle coach is definitely more stable, especially in cross winds and when passing or being passed by large trucks. Also, the Tag coaches seem to come with the 450 HP Cummins ISL engine, while the 40 footers come with 380 HP. The larger engine helps. OBTW, my 450 gets better fuel economy that the prior 360 HP engine. (This does not justify the price difference between a tag and non tag coach, however!)

[Smitty77_7]

One reason 42' and 43' have become popular, is that when a tag is added, you also end up losing basement space. By going just a bit longer, you recover the basement space to be equal to the 40'. (And note, many 40' rigs available without tags. But very few 42'+ area available without tags.) And by remaining under 45', for many states, no special Drivers License required.

 

And yes, if you search on say IRV2 or RV.Net, for Tags vs Non Tag (or some combo) - you will read the pro's and con's of Tag's vs Non Tag's. The short list of Pro's:

 

-Extra set of brakes

-Extra patch of rubber for braking and handling in adverse conditions

-Drive wheels moved forward, for tighter turning radius

-More CCC

-More stability on the road

-As RV.Net and IRV2 poster, Executive, states - "Tag's look sexy!"

-Other

 

Short list of tag cons:

-More weight overall (So, mid size block Cummins ISL's and CAT C9's work harder.)

-Lost of basement storage (Thus the 42-43' growth popularity.)

-Extra set of shoes/tires, brakes, shocks to maintain

-Tolls quite often count axles

-More moving pieces, so risk of more to go wrong

 

As with all things RV'ing, it comes down to what you two feel is important to you. Do you feel you may need the extra CCC? Do you feel you may want more stability, as well as more stability while towing heavier toads or trailers? Do you feel moving to a 42'+ rig with tags, to recover basement space lost to the tags, is needed for what you will be carrying? Do you feel tags look sexy, and is that important to you? If no to the bulk of the these, then not a big deal to have a 40' - as long as it meets your needs, and most important, you both like the interior layout.

 

One opinion that I thought was good advise, given to me from a veteran Country Coach owner. With tag, you have the added CCC ability (Our coach has over 11K pounds of CCC.) for in case you determine you want to carry more gear when you travel. Without the tag, CCC could limit what gear you can bring... So I factored that when going with a tag unit, as well as my own personal quest to provide as much driving stability and emergency maneuvering ability as possible - a safety edge is the way I looked at it. So, I dropped years to remain within our planned budget range, and bought the highest quality coach with tag that met our needs. The one key item I did not get, and partially regret, is a BIG BLOCK Cummins, CAT or Detroit engine. My comment above about the extra weight that tag's can bring to a rig - has our mid size block Cummins ISL370(400) sometimes working a bit hard on the longer grades. The DW saw the size of the galley, and it was game over - she would not have cared if it had a Briggs & Stranton 5HP engine!!!! BIB BLOCKS provide not only more power via HP/Torque, but also another important safety item - is the larger displacement yield higher braking horsepower with either 2 or 3 Stage Jake Compression, or in some coaches, Retarder transmission.

 

Happy ongoing hunting, take your time, and keep going over 'What is important to you two?' Not me, or others - as it's your coin going out for this rig, not ours:)!

Smitty

[mrschwarz]

I had a 37' Meridian before I got the 42' Tour. As far as driving stability, there is no comparison. Don't worry about brakes. They'll probably last longer than you do. Tires, on the other hand, can cost a little more. Something I learned when we got ours is that weight distribution can be a real bugger when you have a tag axle. For example, my coach has a 44,400 lb. GVW. The front axle is 14,000, the drive axle is 20,000 and the tag is 10,000. When I first got it, the was more weight on the front axle than on the drive axle. A lot of work at the dealer and a lot of trips to the scale got things as good as they could get. The front axle was only a few hundred pounds overweight. When tire replacement time came, one size larger fixed that.

 

The freightliner CCC guy I talked to said that tags always run heavy in front. He also said none of them are overweight when the coach builder gets them.